Doorstop Interview, Australian High Commission in London

SUBJECTS: Ukraine, Operation KUDU, Operation INTERFLEX, 

AUSTRALIAN HIGH COMMISSIONER, STEPHEN SMITH: Okay, well, thanks very much for attending Australia House today. Good to see you last week for my off-the-record briefing and today you have an on-the-record briefing from Vice Admiral Justin Jones, who of course, is the chief of Joint Operations. So Vice Admiral Jones is here, he's presenting at the Catalyst tomorrow, which you're all aware of. That'll be a public presentation, seeing counterparts, but also wanting to take the opportunity today to brief you on-the-record on matters relating to Chief of Joint Operations responsibility, but in particular, so far as the UK is concerned, Operation KUDU. And so without further ado, I'll hand over to Vice Admiral Jones. So Justin, great to see you.

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Thank you, High Commissioner. Well, good afternoon. My name is Vice Admiral Justin Jones. I'm the Chief of Joint Operations for the Australian Defence Force, and in that capacity, I command all Australian Defence Force Operations, domestic, regional, and global. So I'm here in the UK and across Europe over the next week, I'm meeting with colleagues and counterparts from friends, allies, like minded nations on the topic of support to the Ukraine and in particular Operation KUDU, which is the Australian Defence Force Operation in support of Ukraine. Now, you will recall that we have been training Armed Forces of Ukraine personnel since January 2023. That was the first Australian Defence Force commitment to supporting the Ukraine. And that has expanded over time and we continue to do our training commitment. We are paired with the United Kingdom and its Operation INTERFLEX in executing that mission and we do that across a number of causes, we have a contingent here persistently training alongside UK and 13 other nations - to train our counterparts from the Armed Forces of Ukraine. That is not the sole extent of our support for the Ukraine from a military perspective. Twice now, we have deployed an E-7A Wedgetail Airborne early warning and control aircraft into Europe. The first time in October 2023, into Ramstein Airbase, it flew some 250 hours in support of Ukraine. And we currently have an E7-A deployed in Europe on a very similar mission. I will close it there, other than just making the point that the Australian Government is steadfast in its support for Ukraine, and it will continue to support Ukraine through Operation KUDU until there is a lasting and just peace Slava Ukraini. I'll take questions.

JOURNALIST: Can I start with something basic? So you're here, you've arrived this morning, you're going to be meeting counterparts in London tomorrow and speaking. Are you going to Ukraine? Are you going to Poland? Is your visit here part of looking at the operations and meeting the various Australian personnel and any Ukrainian personnel? Can you talk about that if so?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: This is actually the third visit I've made to Europe in the some 14 months now since I've been Chief of Joint Operations. So I'm doing what I do most occasions and that is, as I said, meeting with colleagues and counterparts. And of course, visiting our troops that are deployed throughout Europe in support of Ukraine. So I won't specify who I'm meeting or the countries that I'm visiting, but that's what I'll be doing.

JOURNALIST: You can't specify if you'll go to Ukraine?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: No, I can't.

JOURNALIST: And that wedgetail aircraft, why is that only deployed until November? Can you explain why it ends then?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, we won't be maintaining a persistent presence of that asset in Europe. We obviously have to strike a balance between support for what we consider to be an important mission, if you're focused on supporting international law and a rules based global order, but with a National Defence Strategy that directs us to focus on our primary area of military interest. So we rotate assets such as the E-7A into Europe, where and when we can, according to their forced generation cycles.

JOURNALIST: We read every now and again about the meetings of the Coalition of the Willing. We also read about meetings of military officials at the NATO level where they're talking sometimes with US counterparts about what to do in the event of peace negotiations and a peace deal with Ukraine. Is there any Australian involvement in those kinds of discussions, where it's military to military, sort of supporting the Coalition of the Willing discussions, and are you going to take part in any of that during this visit?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, we've been involved in Coalition of the Willing planning since it was stood up early this year. We actually deployed planners from my headquarters over here to assist with that alongside some of the military start from here in the High Commission in London. We've continued to be involved throughout, and I remain involved. That is what I consider to be prudent planning for a mission that the government is, as I said, steadfast on, but it is the government's decision whether it would commit to any form of the Coalition of the Willing.

JOURNALIST: Just on Crowe’s question, Defence Secretary, John Healey was speaking last night about the Coalition of the Willing in the UK Parliament. He was saying there's 200 military planners from 30 countries that are helping him to design plans at the event for a ceasefire, just secure the skies and seas. Can you just explain a bit more about Australia's involvement in that and what that would look like in the event of a ceasefire were we working at?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, no, I can't, because that would be pre-decisional and that's a government gift to determine how it deploys its defence force. All I can offer, as I've said, is we're involved in the planning, and we will wait until there is a peace deal of some sorts and then wait for our government's direction on how it wants to handle it.

JOURNALIST: What are the suite of options that the ADF is providing for the government to choose from?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'm not going to comment on that because that would be pre-decisional, I would be getting out ahead of government, so we would in the normal way of prudent planning, we would have a range of options from which the government can choose and I'm not going to disclose that before the government has had a chance to consider those options.

JOURNALIST: But could you elaborate on whether we would be involved in the land, the sea, the sky aspect, is that possible?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: We are looking at all of the lines of effort that have been publicised in terms of the planning that's going on, and I can't comment on where the government chooses to commit.

JOURNALIST: Under Operation INTERFLEX, the British are talking about moving that training in country. Would you consider moving in country with the British?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Again, that's for the government to decide whether it wants to move the Australian Defence Force, you know, farther forward. But we maintain our presence alongside the UK, certainly here in the UK, on that very important training mission.

JOURNALIST: And what would any advantages of that be?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, from the UK perspective, it's closer, so your training cycles cut out the time required, not only for travel, but distance and proximity, that would be one of the arguments.

JOURNALIST: Are you able to give an update, please, on the personnel, on the ground because we've got, the figures we've given today, but you to just explain the numbers, so of the most up to date.

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: The Australian Defence Force has more than 200 personnel spread around various countries in Europe, all in support of Ukraine, and its war against Russian aggression. So I'm not going to disclose specifics of locations or numbers in those locations for what I hope is obvious reasons. This is a state on state war in Europe; and Russia has a very long reach and I will not put our people at risk by talking about where they are and what they're doing.

JOURNALIST: I wouldn't ask you. I didn't ask you that. I'm sorry, sir. I just want to be. I'm not trying to intrusive. No, no. Did you say 200 or 2000?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Over 200.

JOURNALIST: And are any in Ukraine? Are you talking about Europe?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'm talking about Europe in the broad and I'll not disclose locations.

JOURNALIST: Could you say, since we're asking about INTERFLEX, we're also asking about planning, can you say anything about how many of that group are devoted to the current planning issues, that we're all following because of the Coalition of the Willing, I presume you're not here on your own. There'd be planners with you. Is there a dozen planners? Is there there five? Any indication of who's with you on that?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Yeah, actually, I am here on my own. This morning than the small support staff. And we the state of play at the moment is that we will fly in and fly out our planners as needed. Most of what is going on at the moment, we can actually achieve from Headquarters Joint Operations Command in Canberra.

JOURNALIST: You said before, I know you would not go into the details, about what sort of planners were going around, but we know that France in the UK have made requests to other European countries to set out in a bit more detail about what sort of resources that over be able to contribute to a peacekeeping force. Has any request been made to Australia to provide more detail around that?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: No, no request has been made, and that's not really how the Coalition of a Willing is working. At the moment, it's willing nations, hence coalition of the willing, like-mindeds, friends, allies, partners, who are willing to work together on the possibilities and the potential for a form of coalition that supports a lasting and just peace, we hope.

JOURNALIST: Vice Admiral, obviously, there are advantages to Ukraine if they get a Coalition of the Willing lessons that we would learn from being involved, that are relevant to Australia?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Oh, we're learning a large number of lessons at the moment, just through training Armed Forces of Ukraine paired with the UK and 13 other nations, perhaps the most fundamental lesson for all of us right now is that war remains a tool of statecraft, and something we should be very aware of in the Indo-Pacific, but we learn lessons that range from the tactical to the strategic. And what our troops that are working alongside the UK gained an insight into when they're working with members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is what it's like to fight a war of national existence. Very important for them, gives them some great insight.

JOURNALIST: Drones have been a big part of this war, and obviously it's a land war, with a short range and a stalemate that we're not dealing with. That's not probably going to be any scenario, in the Indo-Pacific. So how far do those sorts of specific lessons carry if it all.

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I think they're important. Drones has been a feature of this land war, of course. You're quite right in that geography and scale in the Indo-Pacific is vastly different to Western and Eastern Europe. And I guess I'd make the point that drones or uncrewed air systems or uncrewed systems have not solved the war. They've not stopped the war, but they are definitely a feature that we have taken note of, you know, back in Australia.

JOURNALIST: How confident are you that Putin would move to a peace deal?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I might leave that to the politicians. I'll respond to what I can see, I guess, in terms of whether a peace deal comes or not. But that's why we do prudent planning. That is the whole rationale for a Coalition of the Willing.

JOURNALIST: On the operational side. Can you offer any update on whether all the Abrams tanks have been delivered to Ukraine, whether the other commitments that we've made have actually arrived there. Can you update us on that?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I can. I won't give numbers, but the majority of the tanks are now with Ukraine.

JOURNALIST: Is there anything else that we've promised that is on the way that you should mention?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'm not aware of anything at the moment in terms of the next tranche of gifting, and again, that's a gift for government, to determine what they're going to gift. My job is to support largely the movement of military gifts into the theatre.

JOURNALIST: When was your last trip here, excuse me, if I should know that, and can you explain why the specific timing now?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, I was last here in April, and I'm not sure I actually made it to the UK at that point. I was in Brussels for some of the NATO and Ukraine control group meetings around the edges of Coalition of the Willing planning. In fact, I was here prior to moving over to Belgium. This timing is more about my calendar than anything else. It's not specific, there's no central reason behind it. Other than I have the opportunity to visit our people, which is probably the most important aspect of coming a long way from Australia. But as I said, engaging with my counterparts across Chiefs have Joint Operations from a few like-minded allies and partners and colleagues along the way.

JOURNALIST: Is the whole trip about Ukraine or will AUKUS come up in discussions?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, all sorts of things come up in discussions, my purpose to be here is largely around Operation KUDU, as I said. Coalition of the Willing is secondary to that because most of the planning, as I said, we can do from Australia at this point of time, but my colleagues and I have very frank and candid discussions about all things operational, and certainly amongst four of the Five Eyes and most other global militaries that have a Chief of Joint Operations equivalent, we're all running a global theatre as opposed to, say, the US system where there are combatant commanders for certain regions in their system.

JOURNALIST: Has what you've experienced managing the planning here and the operation, given you any insight into whether Australia's current defence spending levels as they are projected, is adequate for what we face as a threat in the region?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I mean, that's a matter for government, military spending and defence spending. That's not for me to comment on. I'm a servant of that government.

JOURNALIST: But you know capability, see?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, I don't manage capability, and I don't procure capability. I'm the force employer, so I certainly advise upwards in Defence on what are my needs in terms of capabilities, but that's less related to dollars and figures, that people and percentages, that people like to talk about. So I won't be drawn on that. There's not a military commander on earth that will tell you that they have enough. That's the nature of the role, and they'll always want more. But I do have adequate to do what is expected of me in my current role.

JOURNALIST: Can I read you a quote from the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organisations in Australia, Chairwoman Kateryna Argyrou, a lovely person, and she says, "It breaks our heart, but there has been such a long delay in providing substantial assistance. Australia must act decisively keeping pace with its allies and ensure Ukraine has not forgotten.” That's her comments in the papers today. What do you say when you see comments like that from the Ukrainian community?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'd come back to the point that it's for government, how they want to balance contributions and commitments to operations in faraway places when they were quite clear in their published National Defence Strategy, that we are to focus on our primary area of military interest, and that is the Northeast Indian Ocean through maritime Southeast Asia into the Southwest Pacific. There is more than enough work to do in that small part of the Earth's surface alone to keep us very busy. I'm very proud of the work that we are doing in support of Ukraine from a small, far away nation that still has an eye on a rules-based global order and is frankly appalled by Russia's aggression, by its illegal, immoral, unjust, unnecessary invasion of a sovereign country.

JOURNALIST: What do your troops tell you about what they personally feel about their mission here? I think we've all been to Salisbury and met some of them. What's the feedback been from them about what they feel personally?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I probably hear the same as you. They get, as I said, great insight into what it's like to have to fight for your country, for your country's existence. So that can have a profound effect on our people, an effect in fact that we shouldn't underestimate when they return home and often make friends and have contacts with some of those soldiers that they're training, some who don't make it through. So those kind of insights, we should never discount, I think that is very much a, I'll call it a mental kind of frame of mind insight that is difficult to quantify.

JOURNALIST: Can I ask you, just a basic one? You've talked about meeting like-mindeds, Can I be specific about the people or the countries from which the people you're meeting come from? UK, France, Germany, can you say anything about the other military people that you'll be talking to and where they're from?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'll certainly be meeting people from those nations and across the NATO community. Yeah.

JOURNALIST: Do you think if it would be a good idea for Australia to contribute the Hawkei’s to Ukraine that something they've really asked for and obviously medical evacuations are such a big part of what they're going through. Is that something that you think your operation could deliver?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'm aware that they asked for Hawkei’s. It's a great capability. Again, that's really for government to determine you know, what its form of military gifts takes.

JOURNALIST: And what about any further bushmasters? I know we've given 120, but Ukraine's ambassador in Australia has said that most are being destroyed or shot down or broken down, it doesn't actually know how many are left. Is that something we have possibility to give more of?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Again, a great capability that has been used widely by Ukraine on the battlefield and it's for government to determine.

JOURNALIST: Vice Admiral, a lot is being made of the physical sight war, but Russia is also a notorious cyber actor. Is Australia, are you able to say, providing any support in that space either through the ASD or through other agencies?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Yeah, again, I won't give details on exactly the forms of support that Australia is providing, given operational security and we'd like to keep it very tight.

JOURNALIST: Can you at least indicate whether or not cyber is a part of your remit?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, cyber is definitely a part of my remit. I command across all five war fighting domains, including space and cyber, and Headquarters Joint Operations Command also includes components from space and cyber, but I won't be drawn on what commitments we make here to the Ukraine.

JOURNALIST: What are the five domains? Army, Navy, Air Force, Space.

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Space and Cyber.

JOURNALIST: Space being satellite work?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Yes.

JOURNALIST: But we don't control any satellite, so, do we? Australia.

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, we have burgeoning space capabilities for Australia, so you know, I won't be drawn on space. Typically, we don't talk about space and certainly, you know, we are very careful about the issue of militarisation in space.

JOURNALIST: Have you have actually been to Ukraine?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: Well, I'm not going to talk about my movements.

JOURNALIST: But in the past. Have you've been?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: No, I have not.

JOURNALIST: Okay. Will you go?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I don't know. That's an honest answer.

JOURNALIST: Would you like to go?

VICE ADMIRAL JUSTIN JONES, CHIEF OF JOINT OPERATIONS: I'm not going to comment on that. Thank you.